bridgetalk.com forums :: Laws & Rulings :: Weak Twos With Mandatory 0-7 HCP, 4+ Cards

103 posts
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Weak Twos With Mandatory 0-7 HCP, 4+ Cards ( 00:29:16 ThuAug 21 2003 )

Country: USA

This is a bit of a ramble, but...

I have seen this described as Lorenzo Twos (4+ cards, mandatory, all 4 suits). This means that Pass = 8-10 hcp (opening light). Is this GCC legal?

Does it matter that it would only be used when not vulnerable?

If not, what 0-7 scheme would be GCC legal? If 2C were strong, or a Precision 2C, then Pass would be 0-10. Would this pass muster (no pun intended). If the bid wasn't mandatory, would that work?

A weak two bid is defined as "natural" if it has five or more cards (at the three level, six plus). Are 4 card weak twos (and 5 card three bids) illegal, or just alertable?

Related issue: ACBL website talks about Pre-Alerting where either:
1) "Partnerships whose systems include extremely aggressive methods, such as frequent use of four-card overcalls at the two level or higher, weak two-bids with bad five-card suits, or three-level preempts with bad six-card and/or most five-card suits must pre-Alert the opponents before the round begins."
2) "If it is your partnership style to routinely open hands with fewer than 11 HCP, preempt with very weak (frequently worse than Qxxxxx) suits, and/or overcalls with fewer than 6 HCP at the one level, the opponents must be pre-Alerted."

Do I have to both Pre-Alert and alert these bids?

I didn't see anything about alerting points and/or short suits for jump and double jump overcalls. Are there such requirements?

With all of the above, what does variable treatment by vulnerability mean to alerting requirements?

Peter [1 edits; Last edit by pbleighton at 00:46:54 Thu Aug 21 2003]

mycroft

67 posts
bridgetalk member

Re: Weak Twos With Mandatory 0-7 HCP, 4+ Cards ( 14:39:00 ThuAug 21 2003 )

Hi Peter - the bids are GCC legal, but. And it's a big "but"!

If your two-level openers are weak, and do not promise both a 7HCP range (0-7 is 8, sorry) and 5 cards in the suit, you will not be able to play conventions (including a conventional defence to a conventional defence) afterwards. No Blackwood, no fit jump shifts, no SOS XX. So, while you *can* play them in tournaments (and expect frequent, possibly ugly complaints!), you probably won't be able to play them very effectively.

Okay, maybe you couldn't play them in tournaments. The GCC disallows "conventions whose primary purpose is to destroy the opponents' methods." This could very easily be argued here, and if it were, then out you go - especially if it's almost impossible to bid sanely after them, given the ACBL's restrictions on conventional continuations.

I can't imagine any local club allowing them, purportedly GCC or not. The University of Waterloo BC - well, ok. We allowed anything, provided you offered to play standard against the real novices if they asked (IIRC, they never did - and by "real novices", I meant the players who had had three bridge lessons before showing up to the first duplicate "club night"). I know the club I work for now would be very quick to say "Sorry, no can do here."

As for Alerting - Pre-alert would be mandatory. Alerts probably would not, but I'd do it anyway. *And* I'd Alert the pass - you have information opponents are *very unlikely to expect*.

Note: on the Mid-Chart, I played a system where we opened most 8-counts (10-12 NTs, but 4cM, 4cD, 8-14); our 2 structure was mini-Multi 2D, Ekren (4-4+M) 2H, and 2S spades and a minor. All of them 1-7 HCP.
We had no problems - but we guaranteed 5 cards (well except for the Ekren 2H, but that guaranteed 8 cards).

Michael.

pbleighton

103 posts
bridgetalk member

Re: Weak Twos With Mandatory 0-7 HCP, 4+ Cards ( 16:02:57 ThuAug 21 2003 )

Michael -

Thanks for your response. Disappointing, but not surprising.

If we went to 1-7 hcp and guranteeeing 5 cards, do you think that it would pass muster at tournaments and clubs?

Peter

mycroft

67 posts
bridgetalk member

Re: Weak Twos With Mandatory 0-7 HCP, 4+ Cards ( 15:36:40 FriAug 22 2003 )

Tournaments? Shouldn't be a problem. You might want to let the TDs know in advance, because you're likely to get many "is this legal?" calls, but within 7 HCP and guaranteeing 5 is normal, and when we did it, it was obvious it was in the context of a very light opening system.

Clubs? Ask the club. It all depends :-). I doubt if you'll get to play this in the NLM games...

Michael.

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If you need help with the Laws or rulings from any country in the world, this is the place!Hosted by David StevensonSenior Consultant DirectorEnglish Bridge Union

If you need help with the Laws or rulings from
any country in the world, this is the place!

Hosted by David Stevenson
Senior Consultant Director
English Bridge Union