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van Reply |
Country: canada
I opened the bidding `1 spade and next person opened with 2 hearts this person had 6 hearts and total points 4 My question is it legal to overcall with low points or should the person bid 3 hearts as to indicate a pre-empt?Thank you van Subject chaged by moderator |
JimO  175 posts Forum Host Reply |
Country: USA
It is ceratinly legal to overcall 2H with very few points. It is my opinion that such a style must be pre-alerted in ACBL-land. ("Systems based on very light openings or other highly aggressive methods or preempts").
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player 80 posts bridgetalk member  Reply |
I'm sorry Jim but if those are your system regulations then they are absoultely ridiculous. If I want to bid badly and bid 2H on this, then so be it. For this to have to be pre alerted is plain silly.
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Ed 172 posts Forum Host Reply |
Country: USA
They aren't Jim's regulations, they're the ACBL's. In particular,
The purpose of the pre-alert, say the regs, is to allow opponents to prepare a defense. I infer it is presumed unlikely that most pairs would routinely have defenses to such bids. |
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mycroft 67 posts bridgetalk member Reply |
Small point - Ed is still right, but his quote says nothing about this particular auction. Perhaps a more obvious quote would be
(examples snipped - again, they are mostly in the order of length of suit, not strength of overcall; emphasis in original). I would say (and have said, when I play this style) that KJTxxx and out as a *non-jump* 2-level overcall is "extremely aggressive" and Pre-Alert. I definately believe this treatment requires a regular Alert at the time, based on this quote:
Therefore, agreeing to weak non-jump 2-level overcalls is legal - if Alerted. So, were you misinformed? Well, maybe. There are a couple of different cases, all based on their agreement being "standard" enough to be non-Alertable: 1. Their agreement could be "standard", and the 2H bidder thought you had opened 1C or 1D. Then it would be, in his eyes, a standard preemptive jump overcall. A player is allowed to misbid for whatever reason - provided the bid is otherwise legal. Usually all it does is harm the misbidder. When it doesn't, oh well, tough luck. 2. Unlikely in this case, but it is legal to miscount, too. If he thought he had had AKJxxxx and the stiff spade, that might be arguably a "standard" 2H overcall, especially vulnerable. 3. It is legal to make a psychic call. The Laws have some rather severe restrictions on psychics, and allow organizations like the ACBL latitude to make restrictions on psychic calls of conventional bids (and conventional bids designed to expose the psychic call). But provided their agreement of (1S)-2H is "standard", and that there is not a history leading overcaller's partner to think "partner may be fooling again", and that overcaller's partner didn't do something highly unusual like pass with a decent opener with 4 hearts, the 2H bidder got away with it. Again, it's a losing tactic in general, but sometimes brings great gains, not the least of which is that opponents tend to disbelieve people "because he psychs, you know", even the 99.95% of the time she's telling the truth! Please, call the Director when this sort of thing happens. Especially call the TD rather than fuming and grousing at the overcaller - that is a violation of the Proprieties, and in ACBL-land, a Zero Tolerance infraction that will (ok, should) get strongly penalized. Just call the TD, and explain calmly the situation, and that you aren't sure if this is legal/if you've been misinformed/what's going on (whatever is true). The TD will find out the appropriate information (in this case, at least including what their agreement is and if the bid does not follow their agreement, why) and rule. If this was their agreement, the TD will explain to the opponents what their obligations are, as well. The mantra: if something unusual happens, call the Director! (oh, if your partner misexplains, call the TD at the correct time - know when that is, and then it won't be "unusual"!) Michael. |
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Ed 172 posts Forum Host Reply |
Does it not? "preempt with very weak ... suits..."  |
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mycroft 67 posts bridgetalk member Reply |
I don't think most people would consider a non-jump 2-level overcall when hearing "preempt". I certainly didn't!
Which is, of course, the source of both the complaint and the confusion. I've actually wondered if they mean weak 2-bids when they say "preempt with worse than Qxxxxx" - many people equate preempts with 3-level, and weak 2s are "weak 2s." However, as "classic" weak 2s continue to return to the oblivion containing Culbertson 4-5NT and such, I expect fewer people will make that distinction... I Pre-Alert and Alert when I play these, of course, no matter what the ACBL's meaning of Preempt :-). Michael. |
bluejak  427 posts Forum Host Reply |
This is a forum on what the Laws and Regulations are and offensive posts like this one have no part here. Whether bidding 2  on such a hand is a good idea or not is neither suitable for this forum nor deserves this sort of language.We do not mind some comments on the regulations of organisations but they should be constructive. This one sounded personal and makes no effort to look at the big picture. If I wish to play very light overcalls then I see no reaon why
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bluejak 427 posts Forum Host Reply |
One of my personal pet hates is the misuse of a well-defined word.
A pre-empt is a jump bid in a suit as either an opening or an overcall to show a weak hand. Despite certain people's misuse I believe this to be the definition used by the ACBL and all other organisations. thus 2 over a 1 opening is certainly a pre-empt, and 2 over a 1 opening is certainly not.People who mean a 3-level pre-empt should say so!
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Ed 172 posts Forum Host Reply |
Certainly. I missed somehow that it was the second sequence we were discussing, rather than the first. It appear Bill Cosby was right: "Don't worry about senility. When it happens, you won't notice."  |
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