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WVLaker

Card played...or not ( 17:30:12 WedMar 5 2003 )

Country: USA

At a local club in USA, declarer trumped her own winner. Realizing what she had done, she wanted to change the card. Declarer was last to play to the trick and was still holding her card, but it was clearly faced.

Should she be allowed to change it?

RMB

19 posts
bridgetalk member

Re: Card played...or not ( 18:25:48 WedMar 5 2003 )

Law 45.C.2. Declarer's Card

Declarer must play a card from his hand held face up, touching or nearly touching the table, or maintained in such a position as to indicate that it has been played.

"but it was clearly faced" sound like is was played according to Law 45, and so can not be changed.

WVLaker

Re: Card played...or not ( 18:36:37 WedMar 5 2003 )

Country: USA

The ops didn't deny that the card was played, but said that they should be able to change it, because nobody had played subsequent to that.

My partner said that they couldn't change it, and they continued play without further argument.

Later, my partner asked the director's husband (who comes around and collects the scoresheets) if that was correct. He said that declarer could change the card in that situation, but that defenders could not. That seemed strange to me.

ne_trepide

14 posts
bridgetalk member

Re: Card played...or not ( 20:52:18 WedMar 5 2003 )

i'm afraid declarer's card was not played.
this may seem strange but the laws give declarer certain liberties that are not available to the defenders.
look at it on the basis that a withdrawn card by declarer does not transmit unauthorized information to another player whereas a withdrawn card by a defender does.

bluejak

427 posts
Forum Host

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Re: Card played...or not ( 02:42:24 ThuMar 6 2003 )

Quote: WVLaker

The ops didn't deny that the card was played, but said that they should be able to change it, because nobody had played subsequent to that.

Whether the card is played is a matter for the Director based on the law as quoted by RMB, and not a matter for the opponents.

Once a card is played it may not be changed.

I notice that ne_trepide thinks it is not played. Well, that is a determination for the Director, and we have only got the original wording of WVLaker on which to make a judgement. It sounds to me as though declarer took the card out, put it on the table [still holding it] and then said "Oops". If so that is played - see RMB's quote of the Law - and thus may not be changed.

---
David Stevenson <laws2@blakjak.com>
Liverpool, England, UK
http://blakjak.com/lws_menu.htm

ne_trepide

14 posts
bridgetalk member

Re: Card played...or not ( 00:59:00 FriMar 7 2003 )

david the wording "clearly faced" is ambiguous and i read it as still firmly in the possession of the declarer, some distance from the table but clearly visible to the defender(s).
on this basis the card may be withdrawn and another substituted (by the declarer only.)
were the person involved a defender - and the identical circumstances applicable - then if this card were held in a position that the defender's partner MIGHT see it then the card is considered played.
the definition is loose but this is why we have directors to make such determinations.
do you not agree?

JimO

175 posts
Forum Host

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Re: Card played...or not ( 02:26:30 FriMar 7 2003 )

Country: USA

This one is always fun.

In most sports, the referee/umpire/linesman is on the scene, watching the action. Not in bridge.

Imagine a football (soccer) referee nowhere near the action - in the locker room perhaps - being called to determine if a play was offside. Or a baseball umpire in the dugout, called to the plate to determine wheher the pitch was a ball or a strike.
This is what happens in bridge.
I have been called to a table countless times.
Defender: "He played it like this!" (Holding a card face up on the table, almost level with the table.)
Declarer: "No it was more like this!" (Holding the card foot above the table, almost perpendicular to the table.)
Defender: "Well, it was more like this!" (Three inches above the table, at a 20 degree angle.)
Declarer: "Well, maybe it was like this (Eight inches off the table, at a 60 degree angle.)
Etc, etc.

The law (45C2) has been quoted. If it was played, it may not be changed, except as allowed by Law 47.

---
-Jim O'Neil
Oak Park, IL

John_M,UK

Re: Card played...or not ( 07:58:18 FriMar 7 2003 )

Country: England

Hi JimO,

I will higlight a more "appropriate" game/sport (?) :wink:

Chess.

In chess if you touch the piece, you move the piece ~ it's a piece of etiquette that the game is founded on.

Here the card whether it was faced or not was removed from the hand and "should" (I know the difference between what the law is and not what I want it to be, bluejak :smile:

) be played ~ that'll teach delclarer to pay attention :smile:

Equally, when a player breaks etiquette and draws a card from their hand before their turn to play the TD should be called immediately and if the card cannot be played legally then a revoke should be established :lol:

or if that offends your sensibilities the draw card should be immediately faced as a major penalty card, :lol:

All the best,

John.

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International Bridge Laws Forum

If you need help with the Laws or rulings from any country in the world, this is the place!Hosted by David StevensonSenior Consultant DirectorEnglish Bridge Union

If you need help with the Laws or rulings from
any country in the world, this is the place!

Hosted by David Stevenson
Senior Consultant Director
English Bridge Union