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[Bruce Owen] Reply |
Hi David
I would like opinion on the propriety or otherwise of the following bid made at a senior club session recently. The hand was as follows S 9 H KQ1042 D AJ102 C AKQ S AQJ863 S 10752 H J98 H A73 D 643 D Q98 C 9 C 1083 S K4 H 65 D K75 C J76542 The bidding N E S W 1H P 1NT 2S 3S (A) P 3NT P 4H P P P The 3S alerted was explained to West who asked after the 3NT bid, and the reply was "Undiscussed". No problem with that.However I have a real problem with the pull to 4H after South's reply. It was clear that North had been asking for a hold. However he claimed he just thought 4H would be better. However while Law 75 covers mistaken explanations and not "undiscussed" I would always assume the fact that your partner is not certain of your bid is unauthorised info, and as such you must let the 3NT remain. North is equally adamant he has the right to change the bid. Your comment please? |
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Interested to hear other views here. Personally, I don't like 4H any more than you do. What explanation did N give of his 3S bid? Assuming his explanation coincided with your assumption (and mine) that he was looking for 3NT, why should he not play there when he gets the best possible reply from partner? Simply saying he changed his mind about where he thought the best place to play would be looks self-serving. Actions speak louder than words, and it's hard to escape the conclusion that he changed his mind because he learnt his partner wasn't sure what his bid meant. And I also agree that logically this must constitute unauthorised information, although I don't know what the laws would say. (And I don't think N can argue since they hadn't discussed it he must know it was undiscussed even without partner's explanation, since he should have known this before bidding 3S!)
Alan Wilson |
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[jtorrey] Reply |
 Why did West need an explanation? I have little sympathy for players who ask unnecessary questions and then call the cops to claim that the answers created unauthorized information for their opponents. West was not going to bid over 3NT, regardless of the answer to the question. Law 16 says that the UI must "demonstrably" suggest the action taken, in order for the action to be barred. I don't think that "undiscussed" demonstrably suggests anything, at least in this auction. If South had said that 3S "shows a partial spade stopper," that would be different. Even "asks for a spade stop" (the meaning Alan Wilson imposes on the bid) suggests pulling more than "undiscussed," because then 3NT could be "just following orders" rather than a real suggestion of a final contract. The whole situation is strange: South Alerted so that East-West would know that the bid was not discussed??? In ACBL-land the cue-bid is not alertable. If we think that North bid 3S intending to play 3NT if South had a spade stop, then pulling to 4H is indeed suspicious. But that would be a silly thing to intend with that North hand: why would North expect South to have nine tricks after winning the spade lead (even though that appears to be true on this hand)? It's not relevant to the allowability of 4H, but 3NT appears to be a better contract; it needs a diamond guess after a club lead, is cold after a spade or diamond, and is down only after an unlikely heart. In 4H, after two rounds of spades, North trumps and leads the HK, which holds. (Probably better to just lead small, but that's a hard play to find in real life.) North plays three rounds of clubs, West throwing spades. I guess North can get it right, but it needs perfect guessing - with hearts ideally placed at that. I think North intended 3S to mean "I have extra values." South's 3NT simply shows a stop, no matter what North's bid is. I'd let North bid anything he wanted. John Torrey |
bluejak  428 posts Forum Host Reply |
Hand diagrams do not come out very well because the software deletes multiple spaces. Easiest is to use the PRE tag in 'Select a code here' and then the text is as you type it. I have reformatted this article to make it easier to read.
Hi David I would like opinion on the propriety or otherwise of the following bid made at a senior club session recently. The hand was as follows
The 3S alerted was explained to West who asked after the 3NT bid, and the reply was "Undiscussed". No problem with that. However I have a real problem with the pull to 4H after South's reply. It was clear that North had been asking for a hold. However he claimed he just thought 4H would be better. However while Law 75 covers mistaken explanations and not "undiscussed" I would always assume the fact that your partner is not certain of your bid is unauthorised info, and as such you must let the 3NT remain. North is equally adamant he has the right to change the bid. Your comment please? |
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bluejak 428 posts Forum Host Reply |
First, the answer "undiscussed" is certainly UI [unauthorised information] to partner. Of course, if North also knew it was undiscussed it tells him nothing he does not already know, but suppose he thought it asks for a double stop in spades for 3NT. Without the UI he would assume that 3NT shows a double stop: with the UI he does not know at all, so perhaps it could be said that the 4
 bid is suggested over passing 3NT by the UI.Second we must remember this is an international forum. The Laws are the same everywhere [subject to a couple of Zonal options] but regulations and customs differ. Alerting a cue-bid which is artificial is wrong in the ACBL, but is correct in [for example] England. Furthermore, some jurisdictions tend to have customs that suggest asking whenever an alert is made: some suggest leaving it to the end of the auction. Whether West was wise to ask or not, he has a right to have the Law applied to N/S as is suitable for his bidding. Third, TDs should find out as much evidence as possible before ruling. Here, I would ask North two questions: What is your understanding of the meaning of 3  ? Why did you bid 3? The answers may affect my ruling.But my opinion of the hand without those answers is that North made a silly bid of 4 which is not suggested by the UI so the result stands.
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[jtorrey] Reply |
My alert-point was not that a cue bid should not be alerted - this is peculiar to the ACBL as I noted - but that it is very strange to alert a bid and then tell the opponent who asks that it is undiscussed. If undiscussed calls become alertable, the game will slow to a crawl. Since the bid *was* alerted, my lack of sympathy for a player asking an "unnecessary" question was probably misplaced.
I agree that the "undiscussed" explanation is UI to North; I just feel that it did not suggest the action taken. North's protests that he should be allowed to bid 4H are a strong indication that he is not about to tell us that 3S asked for a double spade stop - but I agree that we should ask the question. Net: We probably agree on more than it seemed we did. John Torrey |
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bluejak 428 posts Forum Host Reply |
In England it is required to alert a call which is believed to be probably alertable even if the player is not sure what it means. In the ACBL the similar rule is "When in doubt, alert": admittedly that is not relevant here because artificial cues of the opponent's suit are not alertable. Other jurisdictions have other rules, and it seems reasonable in some places anyway to alert even when the actual meaning is unknown.
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[Bruce Owen] Reply |
As the original poster of this poser I can answer Davids question about what North meant by the 3S. As the hand confirms it was definitely asking South to 3NT with a hold. It is common in our area. Had the question by West not been asked there is no doubt whatever that North would have passed. I know because I play the same bid with him and we are a smallish group in which the bid is not uncommon. Given that info, does that affect anyone's opinion?
For the record the cops were never called on this, since as East my partner and I received a good result with 4H being 2 away. I'm happy with that outcome. I still think my partner was quite entitled to ask the meaning, as on her hand she sure wants to know where the spades are. |
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bluejak 428 posts Forum Host Reply |
I would certainly ask North why he bid 3
if he was not going to pass 3NT. My guess is that he was until he heard the explanation!Given that, pass of 3NT which is certainly a logical alternative might be considered suggested by the unauthorised information, so we adjust if there is damage. You are only going to do better in 3NT on a heart lead and a spade back which is three off: any other defence leads to two off, one off or 3NT making! With hearts being a bid suit I do not think a heart lead likely enough so I do not adjust. I would warn North in a friendly way that I would have adjusted if there had been damage. As to your partner's question, surely she is not going to bid over 3NT!!!!!!! I presume she wants to know where the spades are for the defence, and it seems better to wait until the auction ends before asking.
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